Vent Thread

 From my very limited knowledge of Ancient civilisations, the Romans and Greeks weren't into aggressively forcing out the existing cultures of the places they conquered so much except where elements were completely incompatible such as system of government, head of state and currency and allegiance but the culture shift was a side effect of privilege being held by the conquering nation, certain advantages came with adopting the conquering nations culture and religious habits. After all their gods outdid ours. 

The Romans for example also occupied the middle east and holy land but did not force out existing religions or even existing laws although Rome did feel threatened by the emergence of Christianity, it wasn't from offending Roman religion, that he was crucified. The Jewish people demanded it of the Roman government.  

The dark age Christians with their Crusades on the other hand were into forcibly destroying culture. The British, French, Dutch, Spanish imposed their will and were all for destroying culture too.

Today the west goes to war over Culture, Vietnam War from the wests perspective was based on the perceived threat of a foreign cultural influence. Iraq war, War in afhanistan, the West doesn't go around conquering nations these days, it's all about conquering incompatible culture. What does it do when incompatible culture occurs on the home front?  

Unfortunately, too often we acquiesce because we don't want to be offensive. Pavlov's dog. 

Test, I don't want this to come across rude or snarky because I don't mean it that way. I do find it hard to relate with some of the examples you've given.

It seems sort of vague to me or maybe I'm just not exactly getting what you're talking about. I can understand someone having ADHD and having difficulty with the environment. But that's not exactly someone else's fault in being inconsiderate to you. They don't know that about you on a train. So feeling that way about them is not exactly fair. It's how you feel. I understand that. But it's not helping you in how you think about it.

I get the unpleasant food smells. I'm pretty sensitive to smell. I could probably find employment with how good my sense of smell is.   I remember working at a medical clinic with several offices. The shared break room was not far away and you could smell some pretty terrible smelling things cooked in the microwave. It's just a small annoyance and now something to laugh about.

Not trying to be harsh or uncompassionate. I just don't think the examples you gave are a big deal. If it's more like a generational thing you're talking about, I get it. A lot of people from this generation don't have manners compared to some of those older than them. I wouldn't say it's an ethnic thing. I guess I'm finding it hard to understand with bringing that into the conversation. I understand what Snore said about coming into a country and then demanding everyone change because you don't like something. I'm not sure that's exactly what you're saying with it all though. 

A great analogy Snore. My home is not as welcoming to me as it used to be due to the increasingly prevalent foreign influences impacting the culture. I'm OK with some of the mediatory culture, but not so much when it becomes a discomfort or pain or frustration. 

The age of mobile information certainly creates an environment where people are increasingly ignorant of who and what's around them and that may well be related.  Adapting to a foreign culture isn't all just knowing how to behave up front, it's a gradual change. As human's we are wired to be social and it's human nature to mirror other humans around us or to adjust according to other's behavior around us or subtle signals.  The more we expose ourselves to a social structure, the more we integrate and perform habits common with the people around us.  Technology is interfering with that awareness. If we don't notice people around us we won't adapt. I'm sure this is part of it. If we are focused on someone on the other end of our Telephone call, we isolate our selves also from the people around us. 

There are some cultures though which for whatever reason seem to act entitled in the way they behave. Part of that is reinforced by social injust systems.  It's almost a rigid, i'm not breaking the law, I'm allowed and will do whatever I want within those boundaries sort of attitude.
Where it gets really difficult for me is when I start to identify ethnic traits common with that sort of behavior.  The reason why it's really difficult is because as much as I would like to treat everyone equally, the signals that I subtly and subconsciously will be giving off to others who may fit a similar profile is, you are not welcome. Those signals expand to more than just train rides.  There's some sort of cognitive dissonance at work and it's a very uncomfortable space. I want to be welcoming, I don't want have racial prejudices but it's inevitable.

Multiply those signals by the majority populations and welcome to something very close to racism. 

Classist social structures still very much exist, systems of power in many places often relate to who one knows or who someone is related to and lesser class people tend to be subject to the whims of those who have higher social status.
A conquered free adult will likely always yearn for freedom unless they manage to somehow forget but the orgies may well be just another reminder that they are not free and that they are in a Hostile place to them.  The slave will still hold an identity outside of that place and long for home but yes, to a limited extent that may be part of how I feel.  I also feel a sense of nationalistic pride wounded. I'm a patriot. 

When someone starts chomping down on a bit of Durian or blaring rap music or speaking very loudly on their phone in a foreign language or any language in a fairly confined space such as a railway car where people are invading others personal space anyway, it's quite confrontational.  I accept that there are rude elements of society and I accept that rude elements aren't a typical reflection of everyone and I accept that we have many liberties to choose how we behave and being rude is not necessarily a crime so people are well within their civil rights to be rude. 

I'm seeing more and more ethnic links to some of these behaviours which I consider non Kosher and rude.    
When these things becomes prevalent and a typical behaviour of a foreign culture, being expressed in my home it bothers me far more than the odd incident here and there. It becomes a statement that says "we and others who look like me doing the same thing believe this behaviour is acceptable" It is not only hostile to my sense of  peace during the moment but It becomes a false representation of my home and identity and my patriotic pride is offended. I am embarrassed for others who are new to this place trying to learn and understand the ways we live and do things. It is far from acceptable to me. 

I make allowances for tourists who genuinely try to respect the culture. 

When I see Australians, behaving badly overseas, I feel similarly offended and I am angry when I see or hear of crime's against those who are guests in our country and honestly, it doesn't matter what colour the person comes in. 



How do we welcome others, yet protect the values and social etiquette without having to spell it out and sounding like we are racist? Already we have announcements about food and drink on the trains, announcements about people putting their feet on the seats, announcements about concession fare youth riders standing for adults. Do we need to have announcements about phone calls, encouraging people to keep it brief and private and to minimise interruption to others? Are we so far removed from Probably but it's unlikely people will take notice and even if they do, there's clearly a massive cultural divide which suggests that we are so inconsiderate of others, we need to be reminded of how to behave when in public.

I mean crikey, a need for that in itself for the people who live here is foreign.

Change is inevitable but I'm seeing and feeling conflict as change is thrust upon me and my cultural identity is twisted to include things which are not part of me.  
 
It's a sad state of affairs really.

Isn't that just idealistic nonsense though? I mean, it may have been founded on it but it was lost sight of a long time ago and the reality since then has been vastly different.

There was serious racial class divide between white and blacks for most of the 20th century and probably 19th century as well.  We can't change the past but we can recognise that a class divide existed for a long long time which has created generational limitations to opportunity today. One might suggest that for a long time, American's did not live by one of the founding principles. 

While not forgetting the impact of generational racism, putting the racial and historical angle aside for a moment.

How can Americans have equal opportunity when most Americans are born and when they are born they are born into a society where they have far from equitable upbringings?
Some have their emotional and physical needs provided for and are able to develop healthily, while others barely survive, are unwanted by their birth parents and don't have the opportunity to develop healthily.
Some are born with Terminal illness, some are born with gifted genes and some with both. 
Then there is opportunity afforded by poverty versus opportunity being born with silver spoon. 
Racism and bias/prejudice may be illegal but it exists and it spreads opportunity differently for different people.

How can we have equal opportunity when opportunity and choice can be limited by our circumstance that we have no or very limited direct control over?

So while it may have been founded on the principle of equal opportunity, and every adult has the same basic fundamental human rights and protections afforded by the law, the opportunity to work within or outside the law, receive equal treatment by the law or even know right from wrong is not afforded to all. 

The way I see it is, opportunity is largely circumstantial, based on many things beyond an individuals control and hardly equitable in a secular sense.

The one exception may be military service but only relatively recently. In living memory some fit and healthy Americans were not permitted to fight for their country due to lack of equal opportunity and even when they were permitted to and performed worthy of it, they were not afforded the opportunity to receive the nations highest award for valour but at least today, there's equal opportunity in the Military. 

You sure do like to pontificate, and try to come across as an expert on everything. But here’s a little clue in reading people....the harder they try to sound into like an expert, the easier it is to see through their bullshit.

You sound like an excuse machine. You're pushing the bullshit that is spewed by those that believe the government should provide everything for you, and you give everything back. “Because we know better and you’re not capable”. 

I have personal experience that says it doesn’t matter what circumstances you’re born into, you can make a hell of a lot for yourself if you want to work. Hard work and perseverance can overcome those circumstances that you believe limits a person. I didn’t start off from a well-off family. But they knew what resulted from hard work. They taught us that value, and I’ve spent my entire life working my ass off, often flying right past those “silver spoons” you talk about. You know how many times I was told “you can’t do that” or “you’ll never be capable of that”?  Now, many of those types come to me for direction, leadership and resources. 

But what would I know? I guess my path, and the path of several people in my life, doesn’t really exist. It’s an illusion, right? I guess I should just take the word of the socialist excuse bullshit machine. 

Thinking like yours is what keeps people trapped in their world. They hear your shit and think it’s insurmountable. 

You insult me, and many others in all walks of life who have overcome very humble beginnings or situations to flourish. Take your pontification elsewhere. 

Equality does not exsist and is in fact a myth, ideological fantasy at its best.

There are only 2 ways to make people equal.

1. Forcefully limit those who are better to make them perform on a lower level.
2. Artificially prop up those who are unable to a level of their superiors.

You see this in the military, law enforcement, EMS etc.

Physically your average woman is not as strong as a man. So for example the military has 2 sets of physical fitness standards for me and women, with the women's being lower but " equal". So women may not be able to perform some of the physical task that may be required of them in the field, which may cost lives in the long run. This is not a knock on women, just reality. I failed my first PT test as a man in basic, had I been a woman I would of passed.

The military should never be a place of equal opportunity due to what it entails to make everyone " equal " puts at risk the mission at hand.

Either you can do the job or you can't, if you can't then they should not change the parameters until you can. That bullshit gets good people killed in the military.

Maybe we differ in our understanding of what opportunity means. I have, in this discussion made no mention of a socialistic approach or advocated that people should get a free ride.
 
I am discussing opportunity, not outcomes or excuses. I do believe outcomes are, in part related to opportunity in that when opportunity knocks, it must be seized and worked at to obtain an outcome  but I strongly disagree that the  founding principle of equal opportunity being extended to all Americans has historically been present in the American culture nor can a principle like that be realistically applied in practice due to wide and varied nurturing, unexpected incidents which occur, genetics and what society places value on. 

I have mentioned a historical racial divide. Are you of the belief that African Americans and other Americans since the founding of the "American have equal opportunity" principle have had equal opportunity? I mean back in the 1950s, What's that 150 years into the equal opportunity principle, yet there were places for white people and places for Black people. White person wasn't allowed to attend a black person school and vice versa.  What about sexist divides of opportunity? Was there opportunity for women to go and fight on the front line next to the men?
How about the opportunity to become president being only afforded to those who are American by Birth right? The Adult born overseas and lived and bred their entire life in the USA does not have an opportunity to run for president.

Why are you insulted by me stating these things? Why do you think i'm advocating for government handouts and appealing to the whiners who aren't willing to put in the effort? What chip have you got on your shoulder?

You were born, fed, clothed and housed and taught the value of family, trust love, hard work and had the opportunity to develop relatively healthily which has served you well. Your parents possibly encouraged you to go to school, study hard and learn as much as you can. You probably gained an understanding that sacrifices must be made sometimes to achieve an outcome. The opportunity to grow from that is not always afforded to those with money and it certainly isn't afforded equitably to all American Children.  

I am not in any way here suggesting a solution in the way of welfare from the government. I am not even suggesting that the opportunity to experience hardship is bad, I'm just pointing out that the founding principle of Equal opportunity is a false principle in practice. Ethically, yes people should have equal opportunity, the reality is they do not and there's nothing we or our governments can do about it except to build in laws around social injustice.  

Rich or poor it matters little, the point is this equitable opportunity thing is simply not a reality.
imagine you were hit by a car when you were 15 which came out of nowhere and you had your spine damaged and became a paraplegic. Do you not see how that changes opportunity? It creates an entirely different set of circumstances.  Do  you realistically believe that hard work and sacrifice would have any impact on your outcome if you had so desired to one day gain a super bowl ring on your finger? Of course not, that opportunity as an American is only afforded to those who have the ability to run and the genetic potential through hard work and perserverance who are noticed to develop into an elite sportsperson. As an American, in America, that opportunity is no longer present for the 15 year old you in the wheelchair.  
Other opportunities in the field of sport are now open which may not have been open to you previously.

The cancer kid with a life expectation of less than 2 years born into a poor family is unlikely to have the opportunity to do many things and what about the parents who can't afford the treatment, are their opportunities to experience a fuller life with their child not diminished by this event? Would a rich parent have more opportunity to spend time with their child and ensure they received the best health care possible? Does being rich or poor provide any indication of how much sacrifice and hard work was made?  In a pure egalitarian sense, we probably agree that the person who put in more effort and hard work, should have more opportunity. Wealth probably provides more opportunity in this scenario regardless of how that wealth was obtained.  

What about Americans born with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome or are malnourished and/or develop in a dysfunctional environment? How can you suggest these Americans have equal opportunity. These people will not be future Presidents and it matters little how much work, effort and sacrifice they put in. 
You may have heard of Stephen Hawking, What opportunity do you think he might have had to be a career soldier in the military or vice versa? Maybe he just needed to work harder at it, try harder? Is that really what you believe?

I don't believe it for a minute. Nor do I believe in an attitude of entitlement when it comes to material wealth. I absolutely despise the concept of demanding a  free ride where someone is more than capable of putting in the hard yards to make it on their own.  

You seem to like the word pontification/pontificate. It's a nice word, I like the way it sounds. For your information, it's not a word that I've come across previously and so I looked it up. Basically a haughty know it all and clearly not a term of endearment.  You also suggest that I come across as trying to be an expert in everything. 

I'm far from an expert in anything mate but I do like to explore and discuss and have an opinion on many things despite one of my life challenges being communication.  It's my way of working at understanding people and places.  Feel free to take that into consideration with your inferences or not or believe I'm only poor at communication because I have not put in considerable effort and made considerable sacrifices trying to improve it. 
Your opinion of me or my opinion of me is a bit irrelevant to the discussion. Except to say, that the opportunity to communicate has already been stifled by prejudice of who I am and what my angle is based on what inference?  

You suggest I insult you and many others who have overcome adversity to succeed? I don't understand this in relation to anything that I wrote. I simply don't understand your faith in the founding principle in the context of real world history or real world highly variable circumstances which everyday Americans find themselves experiencing, I wrote a few examples and somehow

you've formed the opinion that I'm some haughty know it all try hard, thinking i'm an expert, dribbling shit proving that I'm an expert  while  pushing the bullshit that is spewed by those that believe the government should provide everything for me

I'm just some dude from the bush trying to make sense of people and the world disputing that the reality of equal opportunity exists.

Not sure where all of that other stuff came from.  

I whole heartedly applaud a work ethic which maintains self reliance for individuals and those dependents who individuals are responsible for. I have not brought up the concept of a welfare state?
Ethically bludging of the good graces of someone else's hard work is poor form.  Australia provides it's unemployed citizens with Welfare(used to be called the dole and it was considered the very bare minimum money to pay for the necessities. these days referred to as Centrelink payments). It's designed to assist for short term and to provide a minimum quality of life. Some people have become professional dole bludgers.  You may not understand the dole bludger reference because you don't live in this part of the world so en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dole_bludger.
The thing with dole bludgers is that they have relatively equal opportunity to gain employment but are happy to live off the hard work of others. Culturally, typical hard working Australians, like typically hard working Americans - lets call them you and I ,frown upon some lazy bugger not only receiving welfare from our blood sweat and tears and doing so with an entitled view and being quite indignant about it,  I don't believe the USA has welfare provided by the government but lets consider it in the context of those incarcerated in prisons. Similar thing. 

I believe that hard work and overcoming adversity with the support of others, especially family is ultimately where satisfaction lies. 

I also believe there is substantial danger with building a picture of being able to achieve anything one wants with enough hard work and sacrifice, Generally, the more someone works at something, the better they get at it but because people are different and have strengths and limitations in different ways, there's going to be substantial disappointment.
The story of Johnny and Pete, two boys growing up who wanted to be fighter pilots. Johnny worked a lot harder than Pete who was a natural athlete. Johnny had to overcome a lot of difficulty with his fitness but he got there in the end. As it turns out, Johnny would never have the opportunity to be a fighter pilot but Pete would. Johnny did not have 20/20 vision. You call it equal opportunity, I don't. 

You are clearly a Patriot and immensely proud of the founding principles and your ability to overcome adversity. Like your story as you describe it, the country  from humble beginnings, has grown and a lot of hard work and sacrifice in between. 

I'm genuinely sorry that my opinion and presence insults you.