Vince Cable's Exotic Spresm
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Post by Vince Cable's Exotic Spresm on Nov 18, 2016 19:19:07 GMT
If you're from the UK, you've almost certainly heard of the Home Guard, or "Dad's Army" as it was often called. If you're not from the UK, the Home Guard was a volunteer force set up in May 1940 to bolster defence against German invasion, recruiting people too old, too young or otherwise exempt from being called up to the regular army. The result was basically a force of mostly old men, many of whom had served in the First World War, and a fair few in the earlier Boer Wars and even in African campaigns, like the Sudan. The initial equipment situation was pretty poor, with many having to wear a simple armband rather than an actual uniform, and many equipped with surplus WW1 rifles, Canadian and American imports, civilian shotguns, rifles and pistol, improvised weapons and museum pieces (and there's also the whole Croft's Pikes debacle*). Manpower was no issue though. In the first seven days of the initiative being announced in May 1940, 250,000 men signed up. By July 1,500,000 had joined. However, by 1942 the Home Guard was actually pretty well equipped; with the introduction of the Sten Gun, they could be issued with more modern No.4 rifles. Lewis guns and Bren guns were issued, as were the American Thompson SMGs and BARs. Many units had basic mortars, and some were even issued armoured cars. Training began to improve with time as well, as men of as old as 70 years of age were taught how to deal with tanks and enemy paratroopers (there's that old joke that they were told Germans might dress as nuns to avoid detection). Notable members included George Orwell and C S Lewis. Anyway, my point is, how effective would they have been? After all, how much use would a poorly equipped, if spirited, band of boys and old men have been against a German Blitzkrieg across the countryside of Southern England? Don't get bogged down in how the Germans got there in the first place, I know they probably couldn't, just assume they did. I'd say it depends a lot on when the Germans invaded. If it was immediately after the Fall of France, in 1940, it'd probably be a total wipeout. 739,000 of the Home Guard were still without weapons in late 1940, and training hadn't quite got off the ground yet. However, if the invasion came in 1942 or 1943, it'd probably be a different story. The Home Guard by then were adequately armed and reasonably trained. Thoughts? *The Croft's Pike debacle refers to Churchill's order that "every man must have a weapon of some sort, be it only a mace or a pike", at which point the War Office took him literally and ordered 250,000 crude pikes, made of a length of steel tube with a bayonet on the end. It's thought that few were actually issued, and a Home Guard officer, also an MP, said in the House of Commons that the issue of the pikes "if not meant as a joke, was an insult".
Those videos provide a pretty good picture of what the Home Guard looked like early on.
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I AM The Scouting Authority.
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Post by I AM The Scouting Authority. on Nov 18, 2016 20:28:41 GMT
Answer to that is open ended. The Home Guard would have been an effective suppression tool against Airborne Troops and the first troops on the beach. But against a fully integrated force including armour and an air force would struggle. Altho there were several more highly secret units hidden under the Home Guard name that would have been instrumental in Guerrila Actions once the main thrust had passed them by, Made up of both regular troops and trained locals operating in a small local area.
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Skankhunt42
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Post by Skankhunt42 on Dec 12, 2016 1:06:36 GMT
I'm late to the topic, but they'd have been better than nothing. Partisans gave the Germans major problems elsewhere, no reason to think it couldn't have happened in the UK either.
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Vince Cable's Exotic Spresm
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Post by Vince Cable's Exotic Spresm on Dec 12, 2016 8:34:19 GMT
I'm late to the topic, but they'd have been better than nothing. Partisans gave the Germans major problems elsewhere, no reason to think it couldn't have happened in the UK either. Thing is they weren't really partisans. A few units of Home Guard were stay-behind saboteurs, but for the main part they were just reserve infantry units to all intents and purposes. Even then the Germans had orders to shoot the lot of them as partisans.
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Skankhunt42
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Post by Skankhunt42 on Dec 12, 2016 19:57:49 GMT
I'm late to the topic, but they'd have been better than nothing. Partisans gave the Germans major problems elsewhere, no reason to think it couldn't have happened in the UK either. Thing is they weren't really partisans. A few units of Home Guard were stay-behind saboteurs, but for the main part they were just reserve infantry units to all intents and purposes. Even then the Germans had orders to shoot the lot of them as partisans. Oh I know they weren't technically partisans, but I can't help but think if the Germans bypassed any of them, that they would act as partisans. I don't think they would've just sat back and not fought.
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Post by I AM The Scouting Authority. on Dec 12, 2016 22:49:12 GMT
I'm late to the topic, but they'd have been better than nothing. Partisans gave the Germans major problems elsewhere, no reason to think it couldn't have happened in the UK either. Thing is they weren't really partisans. A few units of Home Guard were stay-behind saboteurs, but for the main part they were just reserve infantry units to all intents and purposes. Even then the Germans had orders to shoot the lot of them as partisans. Don't forget these guys. Churchill's Secret Army link
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Vince Cable's Exotic Spresm
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Date registered: Feb 13, 2016 17:06:06 GMT
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Post by Vince Cable's Exotic Spresm on Dec 12, 2016 23:51:54 GMT
Thing is they weren't really partisans. A few units of Home Guard were stay-behind saboteurs, but for the main part they were just reserve infantry units to all intents and purposes. Even then the Germans had orders to shoot the lot of them as partisans. Don't forget these guys. Churchill's Secret Army linkI managed to find records and details for the auxiliaries in my local area, it was funny that some of their objectives and targets involved blowing up stuff that's still there today. Also turns out the foreman of a local business that only shut down about fifteen years ago was one of the auxiliaries. I watched a good docu-drama on the auxiliaries during the summer as well.
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I AM The Scouting Authority.
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Date registered: Feb 13, 2016 17:12:18 GMT
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Post by I AM The Scouting Authority. on Dec 13, 2016 0:15:16 GMT
Don't forget these guys. Churchill's Secret Army link I managed to find records and details for the auxiliaries in my local area, it was funny that some of their objectives and targets involved blowing up stuff that's still there today. Also turns out the foreman of a local business that only shut down about fifteen years ago was one of the auxiliaries. I watched a good docu-drama on the auxiliaries during the summer as well. Theres a hidden concrete bunker in the village I live in here in Kent. We found it as kids when the dog went splosh down into it. Full of water and quite inaccessible.
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Pit Friend
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Post by Pit Friend on Dec 29, 2016 15:50:58 GMT
Probably about as well as the Volkssturm did for the Germans against the Allies as they were essentially the same thing. The main difference is the Volkssturm weren't volunteers for the most part.
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Vince Cable's Exotic Spresm
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Date registered: Feb 13, 2016 17:06:06 GMT
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Post by Vince Cable's Exotic Spresm on Dec 29, 2016 15:54:49 GMT
Probably about as well as the Volkssturm did for the Germans against the Allies as they were essentially the same thing. The main difference is the Volkssturm weren't volunteers for the most part. At least the Home Guard was trained (compared to the Volkssturm, very well trained), since the Volkssturm were formed as the Soviets advanced, so they just gave old men and boys guns and said "point it at the Russian, pull that", but the Home Guard, by 1941-ish, were being trained in proper infantry tactics and some in guerilla warfare.
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Post by Pit Friend on Dec 29, 2016 16:21:39 GMT
Probably about as well as the Volkssturm did for the Germans against the Allies as they were essentially the same thing. The main difference is the Volkssturm weren't volunteers for the most part. At least the Home Guard was trained (compared to the Volkssturm, very well trained), since the Volkssturm were formed as the Soviets advanced, so they just gave old men and boys guns and said "point it at the Russian, pull that", but the Home Guard, by 1941-ish, were being trained in proper infantry tactics and some in guerilla warfare. True but some of the old men were Great War veterans so they weren't completely new to combat, similar to the Home Guard when it was formed. And while they weren't terribly well trained they did have good weapons because if nothing else the Germans at that point did have good small arms and lots of them, including Panzerfausts to deal with armor. The biggest difference I think was morale. The Home Guard were all volunteers and motivated. The Volkssturm were mainly conscripts and while they may very well have hated and feared the Soviets they pretty much knew the writing was on the wall.
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