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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 13:20:42 GMT
I know where I stand on the issue. Here is my response to Giddy in the now locked thread on the live forum.
The fact that criminals are becoming more active makes me value gun ownership even more. Passing a law making guns illegal will not eliminate guns. It will eliminate lawfully owned guns. What good is taking guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens going to accomplish? All it will do is leave them unarmed for newly emboldened criminals to prey on.
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Post by JesterUSMC on Jul 8, 2016 13:23:58 GMT
Don't want a gun? Don't buy one.
Don't tell me I can't defend myself or my family with the same tool that LEO's and the Military use to defend theirs.
Any person, of any color or background, should own a firearm to do the same.
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FormulaZR
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Post by FormulaZR on Jul 8, 2016 13:28:21 GMT
The problem with gun control is similar to the problem with drugs.
Gun control stops law abiding people from acquiring guns. Gun control does not stop criminals who have intentions of continuing to be a criminal from obtaining guns - it may slow it down somewhat, but not by a measurable margin.
Also - NCIC does not have access to HIPAA files, so the 'mental health' question on the form is purely honor system (that should be changed).
That said, while I am a gun advocate - I do find it hard to rationally debate why I should be allowed to own an unrestricted number of AR-15, AK47, SKS, et al type weapons.
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Post by JesterUSMC on Jul 8, 2016 13:33:08 GMT
That said, while I am a gun advocate - I do find it hard to rationally debate why I should be allowed to own an unrestricted number of AR-15, AK47, SKS, et al type weapons. Why should you be allowed to go to the McDonalds drive thru and order as many burgers & fries as you want? Why should any car have the ability to go over 85 MPH? If I want to buy 3 AR-pattern rifles at the same time, why shouldn't I? If I want to own 30 AR's or AK's, why shouldn't I? |
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vvmrgoodcatvv
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Post by vvmrgoodcatvv on Jul 8, 2016 14:06:23 GMT
The problem with gun control is similar to the problem with drugs. Gun control stops law abiding people from acquiring guns. Gun control does not stop criminals who have intentions of continuing to be a criminal from obtaining guns - it may slow it down somewhat, but not by a measurable margin. Also - NCIC does not have access to HIPAA files, so the 'mental health' question on the form is purely honor system (that should be changed). That said, while I am a gun advocate - I do find it hard to rationally debate why I should be allowed to own an unrestricted number of AR-15, AK47, SKS, et al type weapons. The mental health point is important. The US made a huge mistake back in the late sixties with the way the chose to admit people into institutions. I dont know the details as I am from the UK but I saw Ben Shapiro talking about it and it was a real eye opener and should be the focus far more than the guns themselves. |
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FormulaZR
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Post by FormulaZR on Jul 8, 2016 14:08:29 GMT
That said, while I am a gun advocate - I do find it hard to rationally debate why I should be allowed to own an unrestricted number of AR-15, AK47, SKS, et al type weapons. Why should you be allowed to go to the McDonalds drive thru and order as many burgers & fries as you want? Why should any car have the ability to go over 85 MPH? If I want to buy 3 AR-pattern rifles at the same time, why shouldn't I? If I want to own 30 AR's or AK's, why shouldn't I? Sorry, I won't get into this one on a public forum. I think I've made it quite obvious here (and in shitbox) that I do approve of guns in general. I will say that I should have changed the wording to state "why it is necessary" instead of "why I should be allowed". |
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Post by I AM The Scouting Authority. on Jul 8, 2016 14:10:03 GMT
Ok I'm not going to get into this being British. I am, however, going to ask these questions.
Why does the US still have a spilt Police System?
Why is there no central Police control?
Do you believe the gun laws in the US, currently based on the Second Amendment need a review??
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FormulaZR
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Post by FormulaZR on Jul 8, 2016 14:10:44 GMT
Lastly, the ATF has already proved (with Fast and Furious) they have no clue what they are doing.
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Post by JesterUSMC on Jul 8, 2016 14:17:29 GMT
Why should you be allowed to go to the McDonalds drive thru and order as many burgers & fries as you want? Why should any car have the ability to go over 85 MPH? If I want to buy 3 AR-pattern rifles at the same time, why shouldn't I? If I want to own 30 AR's or AK's, why shouldn't I? Sorry, I won't get into this one on a public forum. I think I've made it quite obvious here (and in shitbox) that I do approve of guns in general. I will say that I should have changed the wording to state "why it is necessary" instead of "why I should be allowed". Ok... Why is it necessary to to go through McDonalds and order as many burgers & fries as you want? Why is it necessary for any car to have the ability to go over 85 MPH? |
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Post by JesterUSMC on Jul 8, 2016 14:20:01 GMT
Ok I'm not going to get into this being British. I am, however, going to ask these questions. Why does the US still have a spilt Police System? Why is there no central Police control? Do you believe the gun laws in the US, currently based on the Second Amendment need a review?? No idea why it would be any other way. I guess I just don't understand the way the Police system in the U.K. works, so I can't speak to it. There are too many gun laws in the U.S. as it is. What is perfectly legal in one state will put you in Federal prison for a good chunk of your life in another. What they need to do is actually enforce what is already written, instead of making things 'more illegaler'. |
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Post by JesterUSMC on Jul 8, 2016 14:21:09 GMT
Lastly, the ATF has already proved (with Fast and Furious) they have no clue what they are doing. I agree with you here. An agency that can make up it's own laws, and enforce them without any oversight, needs to be defunded and allowed to fade into history. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2016 14:23:43 GMT
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Post by Snorelacks on Jul 8, 2016 14:33:52 GMT
Ok I'm not going to get into this being British. I am, however, going to ask these questions. Why does the US still have a spilt Police System? Why is there no central Police control? Do you believe the gun laws in the US, currently based on the Second Amendment need a review?? Widowmaker...the formation of the United "States" was premised on state's rights so that the central government is made up of representatives that are elected by their local citizen "neighbors". This was enshrined in Article IV of the US Constitution as a direct result of having been ruled by an unelected King. Typically this is called "state's rights" in which each state in the republic can have their own local laws and thus police forces to enforce them. However, this doesn't mean that a federal law passed by a majority of the elected representatives can't supercede a local law. It is complicated, but the main thrust of the US being a constitutional republic is based on fundamental rights that can't be taken away by a single ruler without citizens having any recourse. |
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Post by I AM The Scouting Authority. on Jul 8, 2016 14:47:29 GMT
Ok I'm not going to get into this being British. I am, however, going to ask these questions. Why does the US still have a spilt Police System? Why is there no central Police control? Do you believe the gun laws in the US, currently based on the Second Amendment need a review?? No idea why it would be any other way. I guess I just don't understand the way the Police system in the U.K. works, so I can't speak to it. There are too many gun laws in the U.S. as it is. What is perfectly legal in one state will put you in Federal prison for a good chunk of your life in another. What they need to do is actually enforce what is already written, instead of making things 'more illegaler'. Ok not make things more illegal, BUT, should the law be reworded because it currently allows anybody to bear arms to maintain a well regulated militia. Surely this includes ANYBODY whose mental faculties would stop them being in a militia. Surely a Mental Health Act of Parliament at National level could and should supercede Gun Ownership Rights. |
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Post by FormulaZR on Jul 8, 2016 14:48:22 GMT
Ok I'm not going to get into this being British. I am, however, going to ask these questions. Why does the US still have a spilt Police System? Why is there no central Police control? Do you believe the gun laws in the US, currently based on the Second Amendment need a review?? No idea why it would be any other way. I guess I just don't understand the way the Police system in the U.K. works, so I can't speak to it. There are too many gun laws in the U.S. as it is. What is perfectly legal in one state will put you in Federal prison for a good chunk of your life in another. What they need to do is actually enforce what is already written, instead of making things 'more illegaler'.This. One million times this. Before we go crazy with more gun control, we need to deal with the 400-something laws already on the books. The only caveat to that (IMO) is that HIPAA needs to be accessible to NCIC for the sole purpose of the "mental health" question. I'm not saying they need access to the gory details, but a simple YES/NO based on fact rather than honor system. |
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Post by FormulaZR on Jul 8, 2016 14:51:59 GMT
No idea why it would be any other way. I guess I just don't understand the way the Police system in the U.K. works, so I can't speak to it. There are too many gun laws in the U.S. as it is. What is perfectly legal in one state will put you in Federal prison for a good chunk of your life in another. What they need to do is actually enforce what is already written, instead of making things 'more illegaler'. Ok not make things more illegal, BUT, should the law be reworded because it currently allows anybody to bear arms to maintain a well regulated militia. Surely this includes ANYBODY whose mental faculties would stop them being in a militia. Surely a Mental Health Act of Parliament at National level could and should supercede Gun Ownership Rights. Actually, mental health does preclude you from firearm ownership. Question f here: www.atf.gov/file/61446/download is my proof. All firearms purchased from an FFL are required to have this form filled out and a call into NCIC to verify (this does NOT include firearms purchased from a 'private' seller). However, mental health records are 'secret' under HIPAA - and therefore the information is not available to NCIC when an FFL calls in to verify. |
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Post by JesterUSMC on Jul 8, 2016 14:56:43 GMT
No idea why it would be any other way. I guess I just don't understand the way the Police system in the U.K. works, so I can't speak to it. There are too many gun laws in the U.S. as it is. What is perfectly legal in one state will put you in Federal prison for a good chunk of your life in another. What they need to do is actually enforce what is already written, instead of making things 'more illegaler'. Ok not make things more illegal, BUT, should the law be reworded because it currently allows anybody to bear arms to maintain a well regulated militia. Surely this includes ANYBODY whose mental faculties would stop them being in a militia. Surely a Mental Health Act of Parliament at National level could and should supercede Gun Ownership Rights. Use that in the context of when it was written. Well regulated meant 'proficient in the use of' and the militia was literally every male of age. The only thing that will supersede the 2nd Amendment is another Amendment repealing it. |
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Post by I AM The Scouting Authority. on Jul 8, 2016 14:57:31 GMT
Ok not make things more illegal, BUT, should the law be reworded because it currently allows anybody to bear arms to maintain a well regulated militia. Surely this includes ANYBODY whose mental faculties would stop them being in a militia. Surely a Mental Health Act of Parliament at National level could and should supercede Gun Ownership Rights. Actually, mental health does preclude you from firearm ownership. Question f here: www.atf.gov/file/61446/download is my proof. All firearms purchased from an FFL are required to have this form filled out and a call into NCIC to verify (this does NOT include firearms purchased from a 'private' seller). However, mental health records are 'secret' under HIPAA - and therefore the information is not available to NCIC when an FFL calls in to verify. Ah. So theres a lot of extra "you cant but i can" wording that needs knocking on the head before you can get to the finer details. |
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Post by JesterUSMC on Jul 8, 2016 14:58:55 GMT
Also - The ATF form (4473) you fill out hen you buy a firearm is a fucking joke.
Security theater, if you will.
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Post by I AM The Scouting Authority. on Jul 8, 2016 15:04:11 GMT
Also - The ATF form (4473) you fill out hen you buy a firearm is a fucking joke. Security theater, if you will. Is that one of these self certification deals?? Sort of "I promise Im not suffering from a debilitating mental illness" signed JesterUSMC |
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